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RE: Beliefs

kdsefton — Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:26:18 GMT

Morals are rarely black and white. For example, our personal ethic may dictate that running over small fuzzy animals on purpose is wrong. Our personal ethic may dictate that running over small children is wrong as well. A situation could arise where these need to be balanced, one against the other. In this case, I think the animal gets run over. I have technically violated my personal ethic. Does that make my action immoral? Who knows? Ultimately, it does not change the fact that I feel bad about running over the small furry animal and it does not change the original belief that to do so is wrong.

This is a situation that is easy to justify. Lets face it, being human is being selfish, mean, and all off those other nasty little things we try not to be most of the time. We do things we know are wrong according to our personal ethic. The foundational rules of the ethic do not change that easily. What do change are the situations we are faced with and how we balance competing values. Our choice to violate our personal ethical values system doesn't necessarily change the value system, it just causes us to feel guilty or to make rationalizations as to why it is OK.

RE: Beliefs

dangerwit — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:23:54 GMT

T, interesing point. Challenges the concepts of what morals are, doesn't it? That seems like a very relevant point to me. If your convictions change so quickly, are they really convictions in your mind?

I like where this is going, I feel a resolution coming soon.

*Phil

RE: Beliefs

Tristan — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:56:20 GMT

I went back to reread the original question:
Do your morals/ethics/beliefs change to fit your mood?

The short answer is no. To change morals or ethics every time a different mood strikes seems like emotional chaos. At that point, I'd wonder if there were any present at all.

RE: Beliefs

Onikoroshi — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:55:41 GMT

I have struggled with this.

To paraphrase Chris Rock from Dogma. "It would be easier if people had ideas instead of beliefs. Ideas can change, beliefs are a little trickier. People die for their beliefs."

One thing I think is a certainty in my book. If you have a strong conviction about something, stick to it while it is appropriate. But, be flexible, as life changes your views. I think morality is something that evolves over ones' life and is not a fixed entity.

If you believe in the death penalty, then you should be able to pull the switch, or push the plunger yourself.

RE: Beliefs

dangerwit — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 23:56:16 GMT

Too much analysis is still going into the questions; make an effort to stop reading between the lines. All too easy to do in a typewritten medium, I do it myself. Note I'm not interested in judging people who subscribe to one theory or another, and please keep your own inside -- no room for that in aikido. I do not intend to further harbor any type of elitism in our group, no matter how insignificant. We don't wanna be snobs, right?

The analogies you folks offered are accurate, that's what I'm after. I am interested in the difficulty people encounter when presented with this situation, and seeing how you handle any potential crisis that might arise once you encounter a conflict. Oh, and honesty is a big plus.

Tristan, to avoid confusion, this is what I had in mind for a "whim". You're right, I could've been more clear -- I did not intend for any positive or negative connotations of the word.

whim
n.

1. A sudden or capricious idea; a fancy.
2. Arbitrary thought or impulse

RE: Beliefs

Tristan — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:51:07 GMT

It appears that the key part of the question seems to be the 'whim' part. That is what distinguishes the difference between someone changing their viewpoint because of growth (i.e. what Faith talks about) and ignoring their values for a period merely to attain short-term satisfaction.

If I'm following this correctly, an analogy might be that normally you would give back extra money that a clerk might accidentally hand you. But one day you are really hurting for cash and it happens, so you figure that just this once you can put your normal virtue aside and keep the money. You come up with justifications to ease you conscience about it, and tell yourself that tomorrow you'll go back to doing the right thing again. A much more toned down version of the death penalty instance, but it really depends on whether the occurrence changes your morality or values permanently or just temporarily.

Is that closer to the topic you had in mind?

I've found that those justifications throw up red flags to me, both when they pop into my mind and when I see them spoken by others.

RE: Beliefs

faemorpheus — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 15:56:52 GMT

Okay, I will try to focus on what you are asking Phil. We'll see how it works.

In my younger, teenage years I held very strict morals/values/rules about the world. I was at that time "straight-edge". No drugs, drinking, smoking, etc. I viewed the world in a black and white setting. Right and wrong were very clear. Then life happened and I realized that things are not black and white. Gray is everywhere. Sometimes right is NOT right. I have broken many of the rules I once told myself could never be broken, that they were the supreme RIGHT and that my honor would be tainted if I did. It isn't that simple. I used to believe that drinking was a supreme evil and vowed that I would never do it. That I have now done so does not mean I am weak of character or that I have dishonored myself, it just means that my perspective has changed and that I have grown to see the world in a wider view. I think that we have to break and challenge and even go against what we believe in to truly see if it is worth believing in.

Are we to be inflexible of mind? I grow everyday and so do my convictions. And yes, I have violated my own beliefs on a whim, to make things easier. I am human. I try to hold on to what I believe when I can, but sometimes we have to be lenient on our own beliefs every once in a while. They work so hard. Give them some time off sometimes.

I don't know if I make any sense. I think I got off subject. Oh well. I certainly won't brood on it. I think I took to much philosophy in college. I believe the possibility that its ALL "right".

RE: Beliefs

pete — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:47:57 GMT

I suppose I forgot to tie that part in eh?

I could be a bit more concise and say that it's ok to FEEL like one wants to cross a line they have drawn in the sand, but there must be a compelling reason to actually do it.

Direct answer whether my beliefs change on a whim to fit my frame of mind? No, they don't. However they are not concrete and over time I've grown to welcome challenges to their foundations.

Where it gets interesting is I may not always act with expressed accordance with my beliefs. That usually makes me feel a bit worthless afterwards.

RE: Beliefs

dangerwit — Tue, 08 Nov 2005 22:54:46 GMT

Good responses, but already we're starting to stray away from the topic. Try to focus on the question and not get caught up in semantics or pragmatics. It is easy to get swept away in this kind of thinking. I am not disagreeing with what you guys are saying, in fact, it's interesting to read. But cut to the question:

What I'm wondering is do you draw that line in the sand, and cross over it on a whim? Do your beliefs change to fit your frame of mind? Why or why not? I notice you seem to think this is a double-edged sword, which I find remarkably interesting.

*Phil

RE: Beliefs

maryw — Tue, 08 Nov 2005 15:49:31 GMT

"...are ANY ideas you have set in concrete?"

I hope the answer to your question is no… How does one grow if the answer is yes? How can one be open to new ways of thinking and new experiences?

Once exposed to new thoughts and experiences, I may choose to keep my ideas the same, but the exposure has broadened my mind. How can I learn to blend, if I'm not open?

As far as the other aspect of your query, emotions can direct action. For those of us who have not attained mastery over self, this can be a daily occurrence (and struggle). How I feel after the action determines whether my MBEs are ---to quote movie—“more guidelines rather than rules”. I hope my core belief is a rule and I endeavor not to break it or bend it too often.

mary

RE: Beliefs

pete — Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:49:09 GMT

Ethics and instinctual feelings are different animals.

The death penalty is a good example. There is nothing wrong with wanting to kill your loved one's murderer. That feeling is less a function of ethical makeup than rage and sorrow over losing a loved one. There is also nothing wrong with wanting to show mercy to the same person at the same time.

One individual harboring conflicting views of what should happen in this situation is not at all abnormal and does not reflect a 'bending' of their moral and ethical constitution. The interesting part comes when they decide which view they will act on.

I question the wisdom of not acknowledging and embracing these inner crisis. To ignore or repress them is to turn a blind eye to fundamental human nature.

Personally, I've found the less I shy away from the parts of myself that I don't like, the more clarity I have when those aspects that would twist my morals if left unbridled come to the surface.

RE: Beliefs

Tristan — Tue, 08 Nov 2005 06:42:59 GMT

I learned something interesting about myself tonight while watching TV. So interesting, in fact, I'm not talking about it.

Tease!

Do your morals/ethics/beliefs change to fit your mood?

You're right, this kind of thing does happen a lot. To me, it represents a rather shallow character. It indicates one of two things: someone does not understand the reasoning behind why they hold the values they do, thusly they don't see much of a reason to hold to those values; or their personal desire to ignore their moral code is stronger than their desire to adhere to it. Everyone has some sort of moral code, no matter how weak or strong, partial or complete, sensible or twisted.

How about more moral: someone opposes the death penalty, and then a loved one is murdered.

What a splendid example, this really points to the heart of the matter. There are two rather distinct perspectives on the death penalty. First is that of revenge, second is justice. Some have a hard time distinguishing between the two and cannot understand the difference. In the instance you describe, a person can think that revenge is bad (which it is) and be tempted to abandon that belief in the overwhelming emotion of losing a loved one and desire revenge.

So, does that kind of situation (apply to your favorite belief/theory/etc) warrant a re-examination of those ideas you have? Do you change to suit your mood, or do you stick to your original conviction? What are the costs of following either option? And, are ANY ideas you have set in concrete?

Specific beliefs and values will always change and evolve as we grow and learn. However, holding and releasing your own moral code to suit selfishness and convenience is the way of a morally weak person. Living by a code can be a bitter pill. If we were perfect people we would never have to taste that self-imposed correction. Some find the idea of being in the wrong so distasteful that they abandon most all conventionaly morality and do only that which serves themselves, they twist their own code around what is best for themselves. You can see this constantly by the ridiculous logic that is thrown around to try and justify the lack of consideration for anyone else. I believe our society is a reflection of that selfishness.

As for the costs, I think they are are almost entirely internal. One could say that people would be repelled by someone with such shifty principles, but that just isn't true. There are others with shifty principles who would be happy to hang out with their kind, and there are always the gullible. It is true that the quality of these relationships would be lacking so I suppose that would be a price one would pay. Doing the right thing can have it's costs, no doubt, but I really like the benefits.

My visit to Japan was a welcome look at a society that lives by a code not focused on the individual.

Beliefs

dangerwit — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 23:09:41 GMT

I learned something interesting about myself tonight while watching TV. So interesting, in fact, I'm not talking about it.

It did instigate a question that I wonder about. Do your morals/ethics/beliefs change to fit your mood? I'm thinking, for instance, you don't like it when someone cuts you off on the road. But when you do it, you think, "Ahhhh tough luck buddy, I'M in a hurry." I don't think that's "bad", it happens a lot I think.

How about more moral: someone opposes the death penalty, and then a loved one is murdered. Now the death penalty doesn't seem so bad to that person... or, we don't relish the thought of killing someone, but then, in a movie, when the REALLY bad guy gets it, we feel vindicated and temporarily relieved of that constraint.

So, does that kind of situation (apply to your favorite belief/theory/etc) warrant a re-examination of those ideas you have? Do you change to suit your mood, or do you stick to your original conviction? What are the costs of following either option? And, are ANY ideas you have set in concrete? Do you get my question?

(Understand I'm not stereotyping you all; I'm just using examples above. Don't discuss your specific convictions here unless absolutely necessary; they are yours alone to keep.)

*Phil